I agree with Kunstler.  I agree with his negative view of consumerism.  There are many many aspects of it that requiring critiquing.  He can justify his critiques on a variety of grounds:  ecological, moral, and aesthetic.  He should continue to do this.

Hey Peakguy this is Rob. We met last night at the "ginger man". Kunstler really has a unitque way of finding humor in some of the most disturbing topics.

I heard Jim Kunstler speak last year and Dallas.  IMO, he is one of the best public speakers I have ever heard--very funny and very caustic.  I am helping the Greater Dallas Planning Council and Southern Methodist University with a joint presentation by Simmons & Kunstler in Dallas on 11/1/05, at 7:00 P.M.   Our plan is to do an extended joint Q&A with Simmons & Kunstler both answering questions.  

IMO, Simmons/Kunstler are to the unfolding energy crisis as Churchill was to the pre-World War II period--trying to warn anyone who would listen of the dangers ahead.

The title of the event is:  "The unfolding energy crisis and its impact on development patterns."

SMU is working on trying to have a DVD of the event available, but that is still up in the air.  

You can order tickets online, from SMU (through the Environmental Science Department), at:  www.smu.edu/esp

Jeffrey Brown

Having read the other thread, I would advise everyone not to kill the canaries while we are still in the mine...

Like TRE, I also agree with Kunstler. Those of us over 50 years of age remember a time when people were not labelled "consumers". But many younger people, those born after 1970, grew up with this MSM usage.

Now in the 21st c. this economics label has been reified (v, to consider an abstract concept to be real) and accepted in the culture. Consumer confidence, the consumer price index (and also worker productivity). These are common terms. Even for older people, it's hard to remember when American citizens were not labelled this way.

What is the outcome of this? It has meant that

• shopping and buying things are the main culturally sanctioned activities (as opposed, say, to participating in a democracy)
• people are regarded with respect to economic status, not their personal welfare. Homo Economicus, not Homo Sapiens
• the corporate mission of making and selling you stuff is legitimized and made central in the culture.

The results of this have been a disaster. Marketers target children. TV is mostly a channel for psychological manipulation that serves advertisers. People eat poorly. Many can only think in terms of sound bites and have short attention spans. Political messages have the status of cheeseburgers. Everyone must have the latest SUV. And the rest.

TOD readers are unlikely to passively accept this labelling but the large majoritiy of Americans do; this acceptance is largely unconscious. "Consumerism" is the driving force behind unsustainable growth. Worse yet, it is America's chief export. As Richard Heinberg says, it's time to powerdown.

FYI--following is an excerpt from a recent, and very long, interview with Jim Kunstler.  You can find the link on the Energy Bulletin website, I think under the 10/2/05 update.

Kunstler on Financial Sense Online
Jim Puplava, Financial Sense Online

Excerpt:

JAMES KUNSTLER: The effect of the two hurricanes alone has been very, very impressive, and even though we're a week past the second storm, the reports are not nearly in even about what the damage has been. And we're still reeling from both of those storms. Yes, I agree with you, the potential for acceleration is very impressive and these tend to have mutually reinforcing effects on each other, and ramifying effects. As I said a little earlier, right now, because of the effect of the hurricane, and the rise in oil and gas prices, there are individuals all over America who are deciding not to buy those houses that they thought about buying back in August and July. And when you add up those choices, they may add up to the end of the housing bubble, and the end of the housing bubble may add up to a lot of people in the financial sector turning around and thinking, "well, you know what, this stream of bundled debt and investment revenue that we've been counting on, never coming to an end, seems to be coming to an end, what are we going to do? How are we going to cover our casino bets that we've made all over the world?" We seem to be heading into what you yourself have described on your website as a perfect financial storm.

JIM: Well, I couldn't agree more. I think at this point the energy of that storm is just gaining force, and I think we're going to see in the next 12 to 18 months, events unfold that we've never seen before, and it's going to be quite a bit of a shock.

In conclusion, Jim, if you wanted somebody to read your book and walk away with one important point, what would that be?

JAMES KUNSTLER: Oddly enough, it's something we haven't talked about. And it has to do with people thinking that we'll get through this somehow, we'll come up with something. And in a way, I have my own thoughts about that because I'm basically a cheerful person, and in my own way I'm also an optimistic person. I'm not really a doomy-gloomy guy.

I would leave you with this thought: that the American people have historically been a generous, brave, forward looking, resourceful group, and we've shown great courage in the face of adversity before. I think we've become kind of a somewhat sloppy and complacent people in the last 25 years or so, but it doesn't mean we can't recover a lot of those virtues that are really part of the fiber of our national character. It's still there and can still be recovered, and I think we're going to be able to do that. It's not going to be true for every place and everyone, but I think that's going to help us a lot. So I have a lot of faith just in our national character, and the better angels of our nature, as Abraham Lincoln said.
(1 October, 2005)

I, for one, advocate shooting the messenger, especially for the earlier thread on Petrocollapse. It was the messenger that turned The Oil Drum into a forum for conspiracy theories and linked peak oil with a bunch of preposterous delusions.

The Oil Drum has previously managed to maintain a level of credibility unique among peak oil websites. The petrocollapse thread was a giant step backwards in credibility building and a leap forward in associating peak oil with World Trade Center conspiracies, alien invasions, and the paranormal.  

I think it's a big big mistake for progressives of any variety (peak oil, social welfare, peacenik, etc) to make hay from attacking the American people.

Way to go nowhere, people.

That basically goes back to the hippies and the youth rebellion of the 60's, attacking 'the establishment'. We know that the American people don't reward such attacks with leadership.

If you want indefinite rule by the corrupt pollution crazy oligarchy, just yell as loud as you can to every hardworking American trying to scrape by, deal with medical bills, stagnant to declining wages, fewer good jobs, expensive education. Just YELL at them about CONSUMERISM! Spit on them! Trash them!

Way to go nowhere, obviously.

We need to understand the anxieties and fears of working people and structure our political pitch around hope and help.

For example, push for universal health care, higher minimum wage, energy efficiency, etc. We can push a better more equitable govt and economy and as part of the picture fund peak oil R&D, mandate fuel standards, develop mass transit. But it has to be part of an ETHIC of CARE.

Jack

The bloggers are largely responsible for the directions each thread takes, so one could argue that there is at least some interest in those topics you deride, however inappropriate to PO.

It's something that happens in blogs, and unless you want to stifle freedom of expression, it is a necessary pimple. In most cases, people generally get steered back to the topic by their peers. The exception is usually when there is something to be learned or else something very controversial being debated.

I'd rather have the occasional stray thread appearing than edited comments, wouldn't you?

Camille -

you mean compassionate conservatism isn't working?

..wink..

I won't argue whether or not TOD should discuss how people will react to any future "final" emergency.  I will mention that sociologist William Catton in OVERSHOOT discusses human behavior at some length, and he believed that serious ecological crises can lead to horrible human behavior (he specifically mentioned Nazi Germany), and I think he believed that the sharper the crisis and/or the more unprepared the people, the worse will be the social consequences.  So I think it is possible and important to usefully discuss human behavior, politics, ethics, and so on, although perhaps one has to be quite careful and intellectually rigorous to do it well.

For your reference, I have posted a link with Kustler's text above or you can just click here

Where I live anyway, it's the liberal/progressives who tend to read Kunstler, and they're the ones installing solar panels and buying the small, efficient cars.

It's the consumer Republicans who seem to think "the American lifestyle is non-negotiable" and continue to drive around in Escalades.

So you might be generalizing too much about who likes Kunstler.

Something happened when I updated the post to include the transcript of the speech, it's now only on the NYC website, hope to resolve this shortly.

Sorry if I'm picking on what to some may seem a minor detail -

I utterly detest being referred to as a "consumer" and I hate it when someone says that because something is "good for the consumer" it therefore has positive value.  I am contemptuous and frightened at the apparent willingness of some Americans to see themselves as consumers, i.e. dependents instead of producers / pillars / owners of small businesses / citizens.  The way to kill democracy in America is to get everybody to buy into being a consumer.  If we like freedom we should fight tooth and nail against those who want us to see ourselves as "consumers".

(Meanwhile, the Democratic Party seems to be trying to appeal to me as a consumer - a half dozen opinion surveys I've received from Hillary or DNC all seem to ask what I want...  I think the correct answer to such surveys is "I want you to stop asking us what we want!!!")

In any peak oil scenario, I think being a consumer goes right out the window and must be replaced by (a) self-reliance in terms of meeting one's own personal needs and (b) active membership in a community, striving along with each other to find a path where we can retain our humanity in the face of terrifying crisis.

1) Regarding Jack's comments about the paranormal:

As a lifelong atheist and skeptic I am NOT into the supernatural and paranormal. But the argument about "maintain[ing] a level of credibility unique among peak oil websites" has always amused and saddened me.

Such credibility is borne of the worship of technology, science, and numbers instead of heavens, religion, and gods.

I shudder in the presence of such arguments because "we the people" overwhelmingly believe America is a Democracy under God (one way or the other). You can't get more paranormal or supernatural than that.

2) Regarding Westexes's James Howard Kunstler quote:

As others have mentioned in this thread, I too am a fan-in-general of Kunstler's approach, tone, and rhetoric. His was one of the first voices I encountered on my Peal Oil journey to enlightenment. But there are times when his brands of "consensus trance" and "outside context problem" make me cringe with frustration and dismay.

His "the American people have historically been a generous, brave, forward looking, resourceful group, and we've shown great courage in the face of adversity before" riffs have always made me wince.

In the words of Michael Ventura:

"Most people reading this are haves. So am I. We are implicated. It is written in the Tao te Ching: 'Prosperity rests on disaster; disaster is hidden in prosperity.' This is true of our prosperity, whether Republicans or Democrats rule Congress and the White House. If our leaders are criminals that should come as no surprise, for we live on theft. We've invented polite words for our theft ('capitalism,' 'the global economy,' 'the free market'), but in fact it takes a lot of muscle and legalized theft for 5% of Earth's population to gobble 50% of its resources. Our way of life is a criminal enterprise, and it takes criminals to run it. For more than a century we've depended upon thinly veiled criminality for our good fortune, and we damn well are implicated.

Which is the underlying reason most Americans want to know nothing about their governance. To know would be to admit responsibility. To admit responsibility would put one in the moral dilemma of either taking action toward a more just world and thereby ultimately undermining one's own prosperity, or ignoring it all in the desperate attempt to live happily ever after. Many will believe anything that allows their fearful desperation to pose as righteous happiness. Any lie is welcome, and those who point out the lies are mightily resented. Democrats are as loath as Republicans to face the real problem. George W. Bush and the right-wing cabals cause tremendous and needless suffering, but they are not the fundamental problem. The problem is the way we sustain ourselves. The way we sustain ourselves causes much more suffering than Bush does. The way we sustain ourselves has brought disorder to every corner of the world and undermined the viability of the planet itself. Collectively, we are the maddened coven.

But we are also harried people trying to live our lives and cause no harm. That contradiction is the root of our madness: We are mostly good people sustaining ourselves in a manner that does great harm and evil, and we're stuck there - unable to face the contradiction. Even when we try to face it we are without the concepts or the means to right the situation. So we complain about politicians and argue about evolution. Doubtless, better leaders would do less harm, and it would be a boon if science could be taught freely in our schools. But rotten politicians are an effect of the problem, not its cause. Desperate fundamentalism is an effect, not a cause. The cause of the general chaos is the way we sustain ourselves. The fearsome imbalances in society and in nature result from our means of sustenance."
~http://snipurl.com/i7mq

The United States has always--ever since its ruthless imperial inception--been about resource theft, slavery exploitation (of one form or another), and rapacious brutality.

The socially engineered notion of America as generous, brave, forward looking, and resourceful is just another form of the paranormal in this human primate's opinion.

3) Although I have a soft spot for Kunstler's direct deliver and unique charm I find myself aligned in heart and mind with Jan Lundberg:

"The prestigious insiders in the peak oil 'movement', Matthew Simmons and Robert Hirsch, want to see economic growth continue. I do not. Such members of the establishment as Simmons and Hirsch want the present industrial society to continue. I want to see a transformation, and it so happens that the effects of peak oil promise to provide it.

Several other well-known peak oil authors and activists prioritize 'regime change' in the U.S., or at least a host of policy reforms. I do not. Such authors and activists would do better to fully understand the implications of peak oil and what is likely to happen that will sweep away agendas. We don't know what is ahead, but it might be unrecognizable to the typical oblivious citizen who ought to be learning here today with us.

One reason for my stance is that petrocollapse, like peak oil, is inevitable and is right up ahead. There is little the government can do about it except to try to protect the most powerful elites. This will not work in the long run, and more equitable means of people helping one another will jump in. I'm accused of being too optimistic about a new culture of egalitarianism and mutual aid, when I predict cooperation and solidarity will be the order of the new day. I frankly do not see any alternative if we are to survive as a species, and if peace is the only state we can allow at this juncture."
~http://snipurl.com/i6gx

4) In closing I share more words from Michael Ventura:

"Amid this massive disruption, we will be forced to pay attention to where we are. You can't go elsewhere for culture; you must cultivate it where you are. You can't go elsewhere for beauty; you must create beauty where you live. Family life will be literally closer: a Georgia gal won't take a job in Seattle if it means she may not see her mother again for many years. With long-distance travel a rarity, communities will become more conscious of being communities. I'm no optimist, but perhaps, perhaps, many will realize that we're all in this together, and that our well-being and our neighbors' are entwined. Above all, the frantic pace of American life will slow down. Way down. That'll drive some people crazy, but others - perhaps, perhaps - will discover a truth put best, once again, by Caroline Casey: 'Beauty is abundantly available to the unhurried mind.' "
~http://snipurl.com/i41g

Regardless of where we fall within the sociopolitical spectrum, no matter which set of belief filters we cling to in our feeble attempts to understand a universe far beyond our comprehension, may we find beauty in the unhurried mind as the gathering storm clouds unfold before us.

And, in the words of James Howard Kunstler, "I will be impertinent enough at this point to conclude by wishing us all good luck. We're going to need it".

Peace in struggle,
--
David Emanuel

You got to get out more. Haven't you ever been to an Old Testament Christian church? Having people scold them is a central tenet of the Fundamentalists.

I for one dread being a consumer, and realize the "consumerism" is part of the problem.  But to isolate the end user and cast blame in his or her direction kinda misses the point, doesn't it?  A more interesting discussion might be to start with the consumer and then follow the lines of the networks that lead from consumption (or over consumption) to other players in the game.  

When I think of consumers that I know well (take my wife...please!)  I don't see any short term remedy (and that's in that case of people like my wife who realize that we all consume too much).  I think people feel helplessly enmeshed in the modern economy and couldn't break the cycle of consumption even if they tried.

Of course, this particular topic has everything to do wth Peak Oil.  Consumption and population growth are driving the upward movement of oil consumption annually.  But, it's not just an American problem (though we certainly consume the most)...It's not as hard feeling as discussions of how many rigs are down due to recent bad weather, but is absolutely part of the bigger picture.

I for one welcome insight from the social critics, but I also lament that we don't have critics who are as well informed about the social, political, and cultural issues that surround Peak Oil as we do have for the technical expertese about oil development, production, and market behavior...etc.

Very interesting questions - why blame the consumer, and how to get them (= us) off the treadmill?  
(1) Do not blame the consumer, but, like Kunstler, hold up that mirror and ask, is this what/who we want to be?  Will we have a democracy in 2050 if this continues?  Will we even have a livable environment in 2050 if it continues (consumption ==> global warming)?
(2) Advertising is a major problem, creating need where none existed.
(3) My wife thinks the solution is to teach kids the arts including music (harmonica, fiddle, bones, not just cello or oboe), woodworking, cooking, and so on - whatever you need to feel (and be) independent.  This can be done as a free community after-school thing (which her parents did years ago).  
(4) ...

Oh for pity's sakes, we are all "consumers."  
whats the big deal?

Kunstler is a genius and it is from long term respect for him and his books, Home from Nowhere and Geography of Nowhere etc. that got me interested in Peak Oil in the first place.

Our family has SUV's, we live in the burbs, and we love Kunstler and pass his books along-- I have given many coipies of ALL of his non-fiction books to local libraries and city councilmen.

He is a necessary and brilliant voice in  the national discussion on Peak Oil.

The big problem I see with those who believe that civilisation will collapse when petrol does (the die-off people) is that removes any motivation to change how business and government work. Eat, drink, and spend, spend, spend, for tomorrow we die. It is just as useless an argument as those who believe that oil companies are just sitting on trillions of barrels just waiting for the right price. God gave us brains capable of creating the technology we enjoy and non fossil fuel solutions exist if we have competent, rational leadership. The GOP can't do this because competent republicans are not interested in the enormous pay cuts government service entails (unless you steer no bid contracts to a company you own stock in). The Dems just make promises they know they can blame the GOP for blocking. That's been politics for the last 30 years. I believe life will get bad enough to change how business and governments work long before any petrocollapse occurs.

I have to confess, as a novice, to feeling a little unease reading this thread and the Tolkien thread. There's nothing wrong with them, particularly, and in some ways both threads have their uses, but I confess I come to The Oil Drum to get a read on things and there are certainly very useful posts that I have seen elsewhere on The Oil Drum that help me to get a better picture of the oil and energy situation.

But I have a number of questions I wish I could get answers to. This may not be the right place and I may post some of these questions again elsewhere.

1. In the US, how much did demand drop during the 70s? What were the amounts and percentage? What was the most effective during that period: less driving, better car mileage, lower speed limits? Without the immediate impact of cars with better mileage, how much could 'consumers' realistically be asked to cut back on driving and speed and what would those moves save?

2. It's only a general impression, I admit, but it seems the Europeans and perhaps the Japanese in some areas seem to be using far more alternative energy than we are. Even if nuclear energy is not counted, it looks like they're considerably further along than we are. How much of their alternative energy is the result of large projects or the result of smaller scale activity? Again, it's just my impression and feel free to correct me, but I get the impression much of the U.S.'s alternative energy is at the level of cottage industry. How committed are any of the major corporations (beyond the usual pr campaigns) to alternative energy? Is there any leadership from anywhere in the corporate sector at this time? Are there executives who would like to change the trends?

3. Is there some good modeling on what would happen if a gas tax were imposed and what the likely consequences would be of a $.25, $.50, $1.00 tax on gas? Politically, it's difficult but perhaps one way to ask the question is to ask what is the smallest increase that would have an effect.

4. I see some discussions on The Oil Drum that perhaps the energy markets will be turbulent at times. The turbulence has already begun whether we peak this year or twenty years from now. Any thoughts on smoothing out the turbulence? Do we need a large strategic reserve? Do we need to encourage other countries to do the same? Are there projects that can give us greater reserve power when it's needed for the power grid?

5. The public, and politicians, have been burned several times by claims of oil's imminent demise. Given the uncertainies of Peak Oil, what rational arguments can effectively make the case for taking action now?

6. Here's a tough long-range, hundred year question I hate to ask partly because it brings out the pessimists in droves (which is really not what I'm looking for) and partly because to a small extent (and for a variety of reasons, not just oil) we may be already seeing a little of the answer in Africa and the lack of response we have given to Africa is not a good sign of things to come (though that may change as Americans begin to believe in a crisis). What are some of the 'realistic' scenarios or modeling for the impact of Peak Oil on the earth's population?  

Peak oil is good. Pray for it. Global warming, now being driven with various feed back loops is what will really get us. Peak oil is the means to destroy the economy that will keep the engine of our self destruction going. The excerpt below is from a legit world disaster site covering the spectrum of volcanic, earthquake, and weather, occurring world wide daily. The evidence also grows daily, it seems, on the contraction of time left for us to try to prevent environmental collapse. We better pray that it isn't too late already. Lots of prayer, I know -- any alternatives? Of course, global warming could be "the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind" (or words to that effect) as revealed recently to us by some congressperson whose name escapes me. Hope he's right. Reed
-------------------------------------------------------
http://home.att.net/~thehessians/disasterwatch.html
The genesis of two catagory five hurricanes in a row over the Gulf of Mexico is an unprecedented and troubling occurrence. But for most tropical meteorologists the truly astonishing storm of
the decade' took place in March 2004. Hurricane Catarina - so named because it made landfall in the southern Brazilian state of Santa Catarina - was the first recorded south Atlantic hurricane in history. Was Catarina a 'threshold' event, signaling some fundamental and abrupt change of state in the climate system? All the major components of global climate - air, water, ice and vegetation - are nonlinear: at certain thresholds they switch from one state of organization to another, with catastrophic consequences for species too finely-tuned to the old norms. Until the early 1990s, however, it was generally believed that these major climate transitions took centuries if not millennia to accomplish. Now, thanks to the decoding of subtle signatures in ice cores and sea-bottom sediments, we know that global temperature and ocean circulation can change abruptly - in a decade or even less. Dramatic new evidence has emerged recently that we may be headed, if not back to the dread and almost inconceivable PETM (runaway warming of the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, 55 million years ago, when extreme and rapid heating of the oceans led to massive extinctions) then at least toward a much harder landing than envisioned by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. "The demon in me wants to say: party and make merry. No need now to worry about Kyoto, recycling your aluminum cans or using too much toilet paper, when we'll soon be debating how many hunter-gathers can survive in the scorching deserts of New England or the tropical forests of the Yukon. The good parent in me, however, screams: how is it possible that we can now contemplate with scientific seriousness whether our childrens' children will themselves have children?"

conspiracy: the act of conspiring together
conspire: to join in a secret agreement

hard to maintain a conspiracy when your plain site actions bely the truth.  ask yourself a simple question about how the secret service responded to 9/11:

as an organization charged with protecting the president, why would you allow him to remain seated in a previously publicly disclosed location after you have been notified that two commercial aircraft have hit two separate structures in manhattan, and that more planes are suspected of being hijacked as they are no longer responding to ground requests for communication and/or deviated from filed flight plans?

now let some time pass, from 9/11 we get the invasion and ostensibly permanent occupation of the second, or third depending upon list, most oil endowed nation on the planet.  still think 9/11 and PO have nothing to do with each other?  still think that the only thing to discuss is URR, drilling technologies, and the inevitable technofix the market will provide?  sleep well.  i don't.

.....we now return you to your moot discussion of just how many oil rigs it takes to drink to the center of a tootsie roll oil pop.....

-tin foil hat

Something to be a ware of: Jim Kunstler makes a good living travelling around the country giving talks about Peak Oil.  Prior to 2000 he also made a good living giving frightening talks about Y2K, and he was DEAD WRONG.  

Another item you might consider factoring into your view of Kunstler is that he was a big supporter of the U.S. invasion of Iraq.  To his credit, he has since changed his stance.  Serious doubts about the man's motives and judgement linger in my mind.

As a newcomer to Peak Oil and the implications, I enjoyed attending the morning segment of the conference.  Regarding all the posts on consumerism, I found the most personal solace in being able to consciously reject that lifestyle for myself.  It does bother me to be tailgated by a HUGE SUV with a "support the troops" ribbon on it.  This war is about OIL, but we'll never get out unless we do confront our status as hogs of the world's energy.  I am embarking on simplifying my choices in my fifth decade of life.
I am interested in hearing and reading more about the suggestions offered in the afternoon.  Were eco-villages a real alternative?  What communities are offering sustainable models now?

I hate to inform you that most people are corrubted by the consumer reality.  Those, that you would not think that of in a million years, have fallen pray to it.  

I have parents that grew up in the Depression. Were the can do, will do folks, that recently I have come to realize have fallen pray to the ideas that "years ago I did not have But today I can have" and they have.  They have Gadgets and they have tools, and they have things stacked in 4 (four) SHEDS in their back yard.  My old garden pressed under the weight of junk in 3 sheds.  The biggest was there in my gardening days, and housed my tools and stuff as well as stuff.  It has been turned to good use, Its my Dad's work shed.  But the other 3 are eye sores on a nice yard. And the Car Port a big pile of other things.

I see it in my own family, consume, buy things on credit card debt that you can't afford to pay off let alone buy more things on.  mortgage your home till the price is out of this world, only because someone down the street got 25k more than you did on their recent re-fi.

We had a President that not to many years ago asked us to CONSUME our way out of our fears from another attack. And we did ( I did not, I saved as much as I could ) It came in handy when my company was caught with its hand in the cookie jar and they laid off workers for the first time in their 10 year history.  

I have read the blog "clusterfuck nation" for many moons, and have Mr. Kunstler's "The Long Emergancy".  I do not agree with everything he says, but I have started to notice a lot more as I Drive places, those places I can not walk to, because stores have moved, or closed.  I could not in most cases walk to most of the places I do business with.
All because we have moved out, bulit up, and spread out in such a fashion that only some towns are nice and close in.

They even have new "TOWNS" Inside the old ones, where they advertise the idea of walk to shopping, schools, and everything that the small town was like long ago.  Only for a price, $150k building lots, and homes that have to be big and to our building standards, nothing shabby or less than our price range please.

We are not going to change till we can't walk to work, or the store to buy things, because we can't afford both fuel and food on the same 10 bucks.

Charles,
             For those that like coffee,  
            Chicory, the blue flowers and tall thin plants on the road side, dig those roots and clean and roast, makes a nice coffee additive or subsitute, used a lot during the civil war.